Curse

Darkobra · Apr 20, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I'm a PvEer.

STOP BITCHING PVE PLAYERS! You are making the rest of us look bad. Start arguing the points that were made in the post about the skills, instead of just insulting him and calling him an "elitest." By insulting people without addressing the issues, YOU are being a PvE elitest.

The skills people are bringing up aren't even affected by the reccent nerf. Why did somebody bring up Obsidian Flesh? Why did somebody bring up Wards (the nerf to wards not affected GvG NPCs is specifically PvP only).

The duration nerf was universal. Thank me later.

HawkofStorms · Apr 20, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

Demeaning all of PvE makes me sad. The problem is that he would have said that 6 months ago, hell a year ago, regardless of the addition of PvE skills and HM, because there are sadly people like this playing GW. PvE skills just made their argument "better sounding", but also more demeaning at the same time. There are plenty of people that PvE almost exclusively that despise all PvE skills. Check the thread in Riverside called "Fastest Elite Area Times?", and you'll see at least 5 people in the thread that don't give a shit about 35 min FoW HM clears because they all use PvE skills/consumes.

Another problem that I see with this demeanor of PvE is that they actually hate PvP too. They hate the "gimmick after gimmick after gimmick" that is present in high-end PvP done by the "noobs" that have no real "skill". You know what that means for these elitists? They hate all of Guild Wars (now). They might have loved it once, but that love is completely gone. Why do you still play? Why do you still complain? Why do you still scorn with disdain? You don't even like the game, so why play it?

On a different note, this particular skill balance doesn't really matter to most PvE at all. It should be permanent, especially regarding the spirits and wards affecting NPCs, considering that has no effect on PvE at all (obviously ).

So... you completely agree with the main point of the OP...
But you still want to call him an elitest.

Thank you for proving my point.

Edit: You didn't specify that you meant the longer recharge nerf Darkobra. That I understand (love earth magic in PvE).

Tearz1993 · Apr 20, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Go back to farming fame and stop pretending you understand the playstyle and opinions of 100% of PvEers. KthxBaii.

Go back to farming and stop pretending you understand the playstyle and opinions of 100% of PvPers. KthxBaii.

Darkobra · Apr 20, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

So... you completely agree with the main point of the OP...
But you still want to call him an elitest.

Thank you for proving my point.

Edit: You didn't specify that you meant the longer recharge nerf Darkobra. That I understand (love earth magic in PvE).

Sorry. I should have really elaborated. I was in a rush because I'm composing music for my friend's game and I get VERY carried away when I'm in the middle of something I like.

cellardweller · Apr 20, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Yes, they should be permanent - not because they don't affect pve, but because they do. Passive defence is just as overpowered in pve, splinter weapon is just as broken in pve, dervish timed attacks are just as strong in pve.

Balancing skills in pve is a good thing people - Stop embarrassing real pve'ers

You can't see me · Apr 20, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Go back to farming and stop pretending you understand the playstyle and opinions of 100% of PvPers. KthxBaii.

I'm not the one making ignorant generalizations here. I don't recall mentioning anything about "all pvpers" or their opinions. I simply point out that the OP is ignorant in his claims about PvE'ers.

ensoriki · Apr 20, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

if it wasnt for

Quote:

Assassin
Assassin's Remedy: increased Energy cost to 10.

I'd kinda like this update >.>

So nah keep it temporary.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 20, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skill Updates

Assassin

* Assassin's Remedy: increased Energy cost to 10.

Mesmer

* Hex Breaker: changed skill type back to stance.
* Fragility: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Fevered Dreams: decreased recharge to 8 seconds.
* Chaos Storm: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Energy Surge: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.
* Energy Burn: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.

Necromancer:

* Dark Pact: increased damage to 10..70.

Elementalist:

* Blinding Surge: decreased recharge to 3 seconds; decreased Blindness duration to 1..5 seconds.
* Ward Against Melee: decreased duration to 1..18 seconds; no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Lightning Orb: this skill no longer applies Cracked Armor.
* Glyph of Concentration: decreased number of spells affected to 1.
* Shockwave: increased casting time to 1 second.
* Ward Against Harm: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Ward Against Elements: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Monk:

* Aegis: increased Energy cost to 15.

Warrior:

* Disarm: decreased time that attack skills are disabled to 0..3 seconds; increased recharge to 20.

Ritualist:

* Flesh of My Flesh: increased recharge to 10 seconds.
* Death Pact Signet: increased activation time to 4 seconds.
* Ancestors' Rage: increased casting time to 1 second.
* Splinter Weapon: increased recharge to 8 seconds.
* Recuperation: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Life: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Pure Was Li Ming: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Displacement: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Shelter: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Dervish:

* Mystic Sweep: increased activation time to 1 second.
* Eremite's Attack: increased activation time to 1 second.

Paragon:

* Song of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
* Ballad of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
* Harrier's Toss: increased activation time to 1 second.

Assassin: Can't say whether I'd worry about keeping that or not.
Mesmer: See Assassin.
Necromancer: I faced a guy using Dark Pact in RA. Tore me up pretty good. Still, I don't have an opinion either way.
Elementalist: I'd support keeping anything that has effects of strictly affecting GvG. Otherwise, revert back.
Monk: Change it back. Instead, come up with better ways of breaking through defense.
Warrior: See Assassin.
Ritualist: See Elementalist.
Dervish: See Assassin.
Paragon: See Assassin.
Ranger: I'm a bit surprised they didn't find anything to do with Rangers, but perhaps they haven't posed so much of a problem directly with their own skills to matter yet.

Overall, I'd say that changes made that affect GvG more than PvE or other PvP can stay. Although, some of the notes confuse me. At the same time of removing some forms of passive defense, they're also removing a few forms of spiking power. I guess that's one way to balance things, but I don't see why you would take power away without supplying power, or take defense away without supplying defense.

Brian the Gladiator · Apr 20, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motoko Kusanagi War

Letme just take a moment to put some input on the skills that were nerfed.

In one week from today, a Monthly Automated tournament will take place resulting in the highest real world cash prizes since the last GWWC. (No its not alot but thats not the point)

If you take a moment to just analyze the compilation of builds that have been nerfed, you will see why ANET has decided to do what it has done recently.

Elementalist, Paragon, Monk, and hard rezzing were a HUGE part in [rawr] spike. If you even WATCH high end gvgs, let alone the monthly tournaments themselves... You will find that [rawr] has won numerous times with the same build. Everyone knows that they run [rawr] spike, yet for MONTHS and MONTHS no one has dared to counter it. This update seems have a significant purpose to prevent any team from winning with rawr-spike this coming monthly. ESPECIALLY since the prizes have been doubled.

Other things to take into consideration.

Shockwave got hit A BIT (still runable but not as instant of a spike). ANET does not want to see that spike do well in the MAT.

Assassin spike got hit A BIT. It is still runable but you need more finesse. A little energy pressure from remedy and slower activation times on eremites/mystics decrease its spike speed a TINY bit.

Upto this point, the game has been FAIRLY balanced, and well maintained. The gimmicks that have come up since the last update, have been addressed fairly quickly and fairly well. Gimmicks are still runable, but to the point it gives the opposing team an opportunity to showcase their skill and stop the spike.

On another note: This doesn't affect PvE a whole lot. I assume its a cover up to outright nerf [rawr]. But that is something ANET will publicly deny. Condi builds might start coming up. And the only thing that did change PvE was Lightning Orb being nerfed. Now people can do pve without cracked armor getting spammed on them! Which doesnt affect pve too harshly.

One more thing to keep in mind.

But for a full list of developer comments on the recent and temporary update, look here:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Devel...dates/20080417

~Motoko

Let me just point out a few things for you

For one, its not [rawr] spike... its [rawr] balanced. Everyone knows that.

two, I don't just watch high end gvgs... I play them. Who are you???

three, there are many people that have countered [rawr] balanced, Dark Alley being one of them ( i heard splitting a build that splits poorly is a good thing.

four, [rawr] balanced is overpowered. it is incredibly defensive and relies on VoD to get anything done... that is why everyone hates it. It has no damage up until VoD hits. By removing all of these layers of passive defense, the game gets better and more prophecies like. Isn't that what we all want.

This game is very imbalanced. Nightfall pretty much ruined any balance that this game had. These changes would be a monumental leap in the right direction to balancing this game... I think any "experienced" pvp player could tell you that.

Some people have been calling me an elitist. Some of you were nice enough to defend me. I'm sorry for those that defended me because when it comes to PvP vs. PvE, I am a bit of an elitist and I can see why some would find it offensive to some degree. I think that high-end PvPers are much more intelligent when it comes to skill balance than any other types of players in this game (ever think thats why A-net hired a GvGer (although not the greatest) to do the skill balances in the first place). Can you blame me for my opinions??? When it comes down to it, I pretty much disregard what PvE-ers say and only listen to PvPers, and GvGers to be more specific.

Some people didn't like that I said A-net should stop worrying about PvE. That was a bit vague. What I meant by that was A-net should stop worrying about skill balancing when it comes to PvE. PvE is not balanced. PvE is not meant to be balanced. I don't see the problem with completely disregarding all of PvE when making decisions about skill balancing. PvE skills are available for a reason. UBER-EASY PvE... use cons and PvE only skills. If you want a more challenging experience, then you should welcome skill nerfs as they come, because it changes things up, makes you think out of the box, and will ultimately make this a little less mind numbingly boring.

When I PvE, it so easy I just walk through the missions and let my heroes/hench do all the work while i watch TV and glance at the screen once in a while so i know when to agro the next mob... WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT SKILL NERFS!!!

Some people have commented that my statements are generalizations. I have a question for these people. Do you think your smart...? seriously...? Of course they are generalizations. You would have to be LD to think that I was that nieve. I figured I could trust the guru community to have the common sense to put one and two together but apparently not. should i go and edit the words "generally speaking" in front of every comment? That seems a bit unnecessary don't ya think? Come on... some people just don't think!

Chronos the Defiler · Apr 20, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Let me just point out a few things for you

For one, its not [rawr] spike... its [rawr] balanced. Everyone knows that.

two, I don't just watch high end gvgs... I play them. Who are you???

three, there are many people that have countered [rawr] balanced, Dark Alley being one of them.

four, [rawr] balanced is overpowered. it is incredibly defensive and relies on VoD to get anything done... that is why everyone hates it. It has no damage up until VoD hits. By removing all of these layers of passive defense, the game gets better and more prophecies like. Isn't that what we all want.

This game is very imbalanced. Nightfall pretty much ruined any balance that this game had. These changes would be a monumental leap in the right direction to balancing this game... I think any "experienced" pvp player could tell you that.

I agree, some of my most fun GvGs took place when only Prophecies existed. Running a Conjure + Water Trident warrior, that was an interesting build.

I play PvE and PvP equally, have my 2 mil balth, R4 glad, R4 hero, R3 KoaBD and too much elite armors to fit in my storage. These changes allow builds to CHANGE (a word people fear in GW...god forbid you may need to make a NEW build!!)

I use earth wards in PvE and PvP, I never really run sins in PvE, but when I do this update changes nothing, because I usually have a monk to remove blind etc. from me, and I am not worried about spiking down targets in a hurry)

Disarm, i have to admit, is a pretty strange nerf, but it is still good for adren-blocking warrior spikers in PvP and never had a huge use in PvE.

Motivation paras were a huge thing in PvE, especially when HM came out, there was a 3-man invincy team using one with no PvE-only skills.

Aegis I don't see a huge problem with, 5 more energy doesn't change much. Dark Pact has little change in PvE, but seems to be "the new rage" in Random Arenas and can quickly sap a person's health away.

All mesmer buffs can help in PvE, the e-denial skills, chaos storm = nothing in PvP, but against brainless caster mobs it can help wonders.

Shockwave was a good update, helped prevent spikers in PvP and I can imagine there being a few farming builds using it as well, and this may cut down on that as well.

FomF and Death Pact does have a large impact on PvE though, especially to those who run N/Rt healers or other hard ressers (ex. Sab's 3-necro) as well as an impact on PvP with X/Rt using Death Pact in GvGs and FomF in HA/RA/TA.

I do not understand why anyone is complaining about this in any way. It balances PvP and if you think about it, unless they completely destroy these skills somehow, it won't have an overwhelming impact in PvE. PvE (once you gain the experiences from playing it a while) can become incredibly easy, the only difference these skill changes makes is the time it takes to do something, not the ability to do it.

some of the people's ranting makes it sound like PvE is impossible now because of these balances, which is certainly not the case.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Apr 20, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

You know as a pve player I had no problems with your request right up till you show this ignorant attitude. So lets hope that Anet keeps on worrying about pve now instead. Seems to me that's where all the money is coming from anyway.

Yea I had no problem with the skill update as a PvEr, but the snide comments about PvErs that seemed to have been tagged onto most of the PvPers comments is really degrading and not needed.

Motoko Kusanagi War · Apr 20, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Let me just point out a few things for you

For one, its not [rawr] spike... its [rawr] balanced. Everyone knows that.

two, I don't just watch high end gvgs... I play them. Who are you???

It is rawr spike. Your ignorance is blatently shown here. If you PLAY high end gvgs, how come I haven't heard of you? Pretty sure Ups Ur [baed] isn't on the current ladder. And I do recall beating your guild into submission several times. It is rawr spike. Until you can agree with that well known fact. Your opinion is negated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

four, [rawr] balanced is overpowered. It has no damage up until VoD hits.

Negative. It is called RAWR SPIKE for a reason. 2 Axe warriors. 1 para with a spike skill. 1 Orb (which used to have cracked armor). 1 Caretakers charge. And depending on rawr's mood, Esurge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

This game is very imbalanced. Nightfall pretty much ruined any balance that this game had. These changes would be a monumental leap in the right direction to balancing this game... I think any "experienced" pvp player could tell you that.

The game was actually very balanced recently. Despite NF messing up the game. Few good gimmicks have been run by guilds recently. Shockwave and sinspike being the few 2 that are commonly run.

Kyomi Tachibana · Apr 20, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Being mainly a PvE'r, I'm perfectly fine with these skill changes, I must say I do love the Chaos Storm change, I was playing Assassin's Promise on my mesmer, armor ignoring spammable AoE damage. <3

/signed

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 20, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Heres my input on the matter, at least the PvE impact.

Assassin

* Assassin's Remedy: increased Energy cost to 10.
I always thought 5 energy wasn't enough for this skill on a whole, but it really doesn't matter to me either way. The only builds I've used it in is A/D scythe builds.

Mesmer

* Hex Breaker: changed skill type back to stance.
* Fragility: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Fevered Dreams: decreased recharge to 8 seconds.
* Chaos Storm: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Energy Surge: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.
* Energy Burn: increased Energy drained to 1..10; decreased damage per Energy to 9.

Sounds good to me, it's about time Mesmers got this.

Necromancer:

* Dark Pact: increased damage to 10..70.

No reason to revert it.

Elementalist:

* Blinding Surge: decreased recharge to 3 seconds; decreased Blindness duration to 1..5 seconds.
* Ward Against Melee: decreased duration to 1..18 seconds; no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Lightning Orb: this skill no longer applies Cracked Armor.
* Glyph of Concentration: decreased number of spells affected to 1.
* Shockwave: increased casting time to 1 second.
* Ward Against Harm: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Ward Against Elements: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Except for Ward Against Melee's duration nerf, It does little to PvE

Monk:

* Aegis: increased Energy cost to 15.

It hurts, but it's necessary, I think. One monk can easily keep Aegis up perminantly with Glyph of Renewal. Now you at least need to work energy management around it.

Warrior:

* Disarm: decreased time that attack skills are disabled to 0..3 seconds; increased recharge to 20.

No real impact, so I could care less.
Ritualist:

* Flesh of My Flesh: increased recharge to 10 seconds.
* Death Pact Signet: increased activation time to 4 seconds.
* Ancestors' Rage: increased casting time to 1 second.
* Splinter Weapon: increased recharge to 8 seconds.

Revert. There was no real point to nerf these, and Splinter Weapon's nerf hurts.

* Recuperation: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Life: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Pure Was Li Ming: no longer affects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Displacement: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.
* Shelter: no longer protects Guild Battle NPCs.

Keep it, IMO

Dervish:

* Mystic Sweep: increased activation time to 1 second.
* Eremite's Attack: increased activation time to 1 second.

Either way, it doesn't make -that- much difference in PvE.

Paragon:

* Song of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
* Ballad of Restoration: increased recharge to 30 seconds.
* Harrier's Toss: increased activation time to 1 second.

Revert. The few Paragons that run Motivation bars are not too appreciative of it :P

Alex Morningstar · Apr 20, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

To the OP:

Go RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO yourself you ignorant shit. Kids like you whining are the reason the meta is so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up to begin with.

Undivine · Apr 20, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

I'm closing this massive hissy-fit. The OP started off on the wrong foot with his arrogance, and much of you predictably let your arrows fly.